Make your own free website on Tripod.com

Irregular Jonathan Speaks: Challenge

You have selected the following challenge:
Identify the passage in the Bible that condemns homosexuality. You must be willing to live by the other judgements in the same passage.

Use the form below to respond to the challenge. We'll post your contribution for others to read within a day or two. If you'd like, scroll past the form to read and respond to the comments of others.

Name:
E-mail Address:
Answer the challenge right here...!


Readers' responses to date:

Name: Steve Gordon
Date: March 2, 2000

Comment: Your argument on homosexuality was interesting but homosexuality is a sin that leads to everlasting death if you continue in it's practice. We must love the sinner but hate the sin! Usery is like co-signing for a loan. It does not lead to death. Becarefull! God will not be mocked. Be a doer of the word of God not a hearer. Pray to God before you read His word and he will open your eyes to His trueth. Maybe he will change your heart. For we all will stand before Him some day and give an account of our lives. Pleast take your eternal life more seriously. Eternity is no laughing matter.If you realize that you are a sinner as everybody is ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and ask Him into your heart. He loves you and died for you. Seek Him with all your mind and strenght and he will give to you eternal life. There's no greater gift.Don't delay, the day of salvation is now.

Irregular Jonathan's reply:

Sorry, Steve, you lose the challenge. Sincere - yes. Careful reader of the Bible - no. Steve is referring to Sin in the Senate, in which we point out that usury (the collection of interest on money lent to others) is much more clearly, prominently and strenously prohibited in the Bible than homosexual behavior. I still ask you, Steve, SHOW ME THE PASSAGE where it says homosexuality leads to God's condemnation (or as you put it, "everlasting death"). You dinna do that, so you dinna win the challenge.

But let's move on and consider your argument. Homosexual activities, which maybe a fifth (tops) of the population participate in, will lead to the use of God's big nasty death staff of terror. On the other hand, Usury, which well over half of the population participates in, does not lead to the use of God's big nasty death staff of terror. Well, let's read the Bible, shall we, and see what it says about usury...

Ezekiel 18: 8-9 "He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase...he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD."

Ezekiel 18: 13: [He that] "hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live; he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."

The conclusion is crystal clear: Usury leads to God's big nasty death staff of terror! Be careful! God will not be mocked! If you want to be a good Christian, Steve, you might want do two things: One, read the Bible. Two, cancel your bank account before continuing your anti-gay crusade.

Can anyone do better than this?

Name: Troll Bridge
Date: March 18, 2000

Comment: Lev 20:13

The whole bible is just trashy fairy tales by goat herders anyway. Since when have xains demanded that adultery be made illegal? Or picking up sticks on Sunday? Or boiling a baby goat in his mother's milk?

Irregular Jonathan's reply:

Come on...it's not the nicest thing to put down goat herders like that. Like Troll Bridge points out, if you accept the Leviticus prohibition, you must accept other weird prohibitions right also in Leviticus, against eating fat, drinking blood, eating pigs, eating rabbits, eating seaweed or shrimp or crabs or lobster, cutting the hair on the sides of your head, trimming your beard, getting a tattoo, opening a bank account, taking out a loan, giving a loan to others...and the list goes on and on and on. Who can honestly tell me that they accept these prohibitions as well?

Since he agrees with us, Troll Bridge's contribution doesn't successfully answer the question (but thanks for writing in!). Who's next?

Name: Xohan dos Montes
Date: May 27, 2000

Comment:

Easy. II Samuel 1 xxvi! An utter and complete commendation. You did say 'commends' didnt' you?

Irregular Jonathan's reply:

Hee hee...nice joke!

Name: Tina
Date: July 3, 2000

Comment:

i agree with the hidden causes of "religious" people on homosexuals. They should also remember that god said only those who are pure and free from sin can judge another so where are we headed if all we can do is just say when someone else is wrong. Personally i dont know if god dislikes homosexuality or not but that is not something that we are to judge we are not god so how do we know what he thinks. For all those people who take the bible as truth from word to word it is not the direct quote of god but man's interpretation of god's word with translation pertaining to their current society.

Name: Mr. Fixit
Date: July 28, 2000

Comment:

Sure here's one:

1 Corinthians 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I am not any of the other things listed in the passage, which was your criteria. Of course you will tell me I am wrong because it will never be the answer you are looking for.

Irregular Jonathan's reply:

Hokay, Mr. Fixit, nice rhetorical flourish. Your last paragraph is a cheap trick: if I say "Gee, you're right" then you're of course right. However, if I disagree it's just because I'm intolerant. Either way, there's no way that you can be wrong. Nice logical system for defending your social and religious beliefs.

But let's address the meat of your contention, shall we? First of all, the "homosexual offenders" translation is a mistranslation. If you go back to the original text, you'll find that the phrase is most accurately translated as "male prostitutes."

Second, you slandered me in your second paragraph. Whoops, no heaven for you!

Third, let's page through 1 Corinthians, which represents a complete document, Paul's letter to the Corinthian church. Paul loved to tell other people what God said we should do, and he certainly didn't limit himself to this single sentence. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul tells us men can't wear hats when praying and women must wear hats when praying. Do you go to church, Mr. Fixit? Do you rail against all those women standing next to you who aren't wearing hats? Better yet, Paul says that women who pray without hats should have their heads shaved. Have you shaved these women's heads? Or are you a SINNER? I'm guessing you don't go around church passing out hats. I call that mighty selective, my friend.

Next!

Name: Sara Pasternak
Date: September 22, 2000

Comment: Romans 1:26-27
[IJ: which reads "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."]

and the "other judgements" as you put it are in verse 29-32 I listed them below for you:

29 "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

I am very "willing" to live by them all, although I will be honest with you I do struggle with pride and debate, but God is teaching me more and more everyday :)

I enjoy your challenges, it gives me a chance to defend what I believe. Bring it on!

Irregular Jonathan's reply:

Sara, I certainly respect your earnestness and openness about your faults. None of us is perfect, and your striving toward a more consistent life is commendable. Your contribution is also interesting, and I'd peg it as the best response to the challenge yet. This passage in Romans doesn't contain any of the weird prescriptions or proscriptions (don't eat shrimp, don't cut your hair, don't give or take loans) that plague the other passages, so you don't have to play the "no really, God meant this one but not that one" game.

However, there's problem with this passage. If you reread Romans 1 right up to and including 26-27, you'll notice that the sin Paul's talking about is idolatry, the exchanging "the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." Idolatry is what God finds condemnable. In response to the sin of idolatry (visit your favorite Catholic church for a little of that, by the way), God visited homosexual urges upon them. In other words, idolatry is the sin, and homosexuality is God's sentence for the sin of idolatry. How can homosexual conduct be a sin if it is imposed by God? The homosexual conduct described in this case is clearly due to God's will.

By the way, the very first words after you stop quoting Paul are as follows:
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things....And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"
Gee, it sounds a lot like Paul's telling us not to judge others for their actions. How might that apply here?